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:: Wrestling Discussion :: => Friday Night SmackDown => Topic started by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 03:27:51 AM

Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 03:27:51 AM
I don't know if any of you remember this, but I spent several months, several different times, waiting for Taker & Flair to retire. (Even had a msg about it as my MSN name for a bit.) Not that I didn't (& don't) respect what they did in the past; More thast I did, & wanted them to get out before they ruined the memories.
 
I think it might've been WM 20, when I went to a local bar/rest. to watch it, & got into a Taker-related conversation with an older person I knew. He was a HUGE Taker fan, & ran down the list of all Taker's WM matches, giving me near-complete details of each. He then went into similiar details of some other big Taker non-WM PPV matches. He finished this whole list with, "But he's not anything like he used to be."
 
Watching "SD" tonight, I heard HBK's comment in the lead-in for their match about nobody "would even think" about trying to replicate Taker's streak. I responded aloud to myself that someone might think about it, but they'd be incredibly lucky to stay in the WWE long enough to make accomplishing it a possibility. (Starting with having a match at that many of the same PPV.)
 
This leads me to my question, which is what I'm thinking: Do any of you believe that Taker is in the WWE right now (meaning: on the "active" roster, etc.) largely/mainly because of the streak, &/or the legendary status he/it holds for soime fans, the viewers it brings/holds, etc.?
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: J.D on 4 April 2009, 04:10:27 AM
Well I guess his legendary status is partly due to his WM streak and both these things are what is keeping him involved. it's the same with Triple H, both these men are nowhere near the top wrestlers in the business but because of there history they are held in high regard. I'm not saying they should have retired earlier but now is a time they should be considering it before as you say they ruin their good history.
I don't think the Undertaker's streak or the legendary status should be seperated though so I would say it is because of the streak and the legendary status that is regarded in the minds of WWE fans in seeing him as a top draw and why the company are happy to keep Taker going strong.
I do think though Taker will bring more viewers, I mean older viewers who are lifelong fans of the Undertaker. If he went I think there would be an audience who would tune out. I also think Taker appeals to the really young fans because he comes across as indestructable etc and these fans aren't knowledgeable enough on the WWE to realise there is not much point getting too obsessed with a wrestler past his prime.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 04:19:32 AM
Quote from: John Doe;25695
it's the same with Triple H, both these men are nowhere near the top wrestlers in the business but because of there history they are held in high regard.

Never make that comparison again... I (like many) got sick of HHH getting vitories & belt reigns all the time a few years back, but when I missed a PPV a few months ago, & he came out with the belt (both as a result of the match, & actually holding it on a TV show), I decided for myself he still has the talent (on mat & mic) for it.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25695
If he went I think there would be an audience who would tune out.

Yeah, but a lot of those fans are people who WWE are going to lose, whether they like it or not, along with many other shows... People who don't watch much TV anyway, or only certain kinds of shows (a groiwing % will be news, etc.)... For many years, I caught all live events, PPVs, & "Raw" airings with my Dad... But simple thought should tell anyone that I'm going to be able to see these things after he's gone. That's why it's smart to have Jericho's match at Mania (mult. legends at once, & at the arguably biggest show they have all year), but then concentrate more on the younger &/or newer guys. (I read Ted DB Sr.'s nook, & found out I'm about 6 weeks younger than Jr., but that doesn't mean I'd miss him if he left & took Randy with him.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25695
I also think Taker appeals to the really young fans because he comes across as indestructable

How, in God's green Earth or the "WWE Univers", could he possibly appear indestructible, when the very same promo by HBK I referenced above has Shawn mentioning he's come out on top in past matches? (Also, that makes the streak even less-impressive, IMO, when you realize he's lost many matches at many other PPVs thruought many of these 16 years, sometimes against guys who aren't on the "active" roster NEmore.)
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: RyPrax on 4 April 2009, 04:58:12 AM
I understand wanting taker (and before last year Flair) to retire. It's true that their spot could be occupied by a younger star... which is why I want his streak to eventually be broken. But as for Taker retiring, the reason he's still around is because (other than the fact that he wants to stick around) he draws. He still gets incredible reactions and he still sells merchandise. I understand the arguments against but they end up being unbased because the majority of people still like him (and I still mark for him when he comes out).

He is coming to the point where he's starting to have accomplished everything that he could have, but I wouldn't have it any other way then having him go into the Hall of Fame and retiring the next night, and that obviously isn't happening this year, even though he has the perfect opponent to do the job.

I say give him another year, maybe two, I still want to see him have another mania match with Triple H, and it would be cool to see him versus maybe Cena. Plus who knows what other stars could be established by then.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 05:12:08 AM
Quote from: Prax;25698
It's true that their spot could be occupied by a younger star... which is why I want his streak to eventually be broken.

Let's not forget the time his entrance takes. (When I had "SD" last year, I actually timed it once. A minute & 16 secs, 15 of which was him standing completely still on the stage after comiong thru the curtain.) That time couldalso be occupied by younger stars, &/or another decent match, or a mix of the 2 things. (Tonight was the first "SD" I saw in a while, so I can't be sure, but I'd hate to think he was wasting all that time on both of the main brands in the same weeks.)
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
But as for Taker retiring, the reason he's still around is because (other than the fact that he wants to stick around) he draws. He still gets incredible reactions and he still sells merchandise.

Having myself been to several live events where they've appeared, I can tell you that for every guy screaming their head off when Hogan/Flair/Taker (all in prev. yrs.) appear, there's one like me opening their mouths just as wide to yawn. (Or a similiar reaction.) As for merchandise, you really don't think people would buy his stuff when they can't see him? Have him sign a Legends contract (as I'm sure all of Y2J's opponents have done, among others, & make the $ without losing the TV time. (Heck, if you pick the right guy to fill the time UT currently takes-up, you could be making $ off of them as well.)
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
I understand the arguments against but they end up being unbased because the majority of people still like him (and I still mark for him when he comes out).

I'd say it's closer to 50-50. As for the rest, I covered it above.
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
He is coming to the point where he's starting to have accomplished everything that he could have, but I wouldn't have it any other way then having him go into the Hall of Fame and retiring the next night, and that obviously isn't happening this year

In recent weeks, I wondered if the HOF inductions this year weren't economy-related. (Funks, Austin,... Far as I know, they're already in TX.) Therefore, I agree it would've been a great time for him as well. HBK & UT also big in Lone Star, & the fans would spend quite some time discussing if Streak would end when he was inducted, as some already have.)
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
even though he has the perfect opponent to do the job.
I disagree; Esp. with an established person (& the same guy, to take it a step further) retiring Flair, give a younger/newer guy the push it would be to retire Taker.
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
I still want to see him have another mania match with Triple H

WHether or not his Streak ends this year, fans will continue to discuss it around Mania time as long as he's still on the aforementioned "active" roster, & HHH is waaay established (&/or talented) enough to not need to be mentioned in any storylines regarding that.
 
Quote from: Prax;25698
and it would be cool to see him versus maybe Cena. Plus who knows what other stars could be established by then.

Hopefully none; I have no doubt that, at several PPVs & esp. many Manias, it has been (& may still be) a WWE rule that against Taker, you do the job if you want to keep your job.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: J.D on 4 April 2009, 06:32:48 AM
Quote from: TJChurch;25697
Quote from: John Doe;25695
it's the same with Triple H, both these men are nowhere near the top wrestlers in the business but because of there history they are held in high regard.

 
Never make that comparison again... I (like many) got sick of HHH getting vitories & belt reigns all the time a few years back, but when I missed a PPV a few months ago, & he came out with the belt (both as a result of the match, & actually holding it on a TV show), I decided for myself he still has the talent (on mat & mic) for it.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25695
If he went I think there would be an audience who would tune out.

 
Yeah, but a lot of those fans are people who WWE are going to lose, whether they like it or not, along with many other shows... People who don't watch much TV anyway, or only certain kinds of shows (a groiwing % will be news, etc.)... For many years, I caught all live events, PPVs, & "Raw" airings with my Dad... But simple thought should tell anyone that I'm going to be able to see these things after he's gone. That's why it's smart to have Jericho's match at Mania (mult. legends at once, & at the arguably biggest show they have all year), but then concentrate more on the younger &/or newer guys. (I read Ted DB Sr.'s nook, & found out I'm about 6 weeks younger than Jr., but that doesn't mean I'd miss him if he left & took Randy with him.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25695
I also think Taker appeals to the really young fans because he comes across as indestructable

 
How, in God's green Earth or the "WWE Univers", could he possibly appear indestructible, when the very same promo by HBK I referenced above has Shawn mentioning he's come out on top in past matches? (Also, that makes the streak even less-impressive, IMO, when you realize he's lost many matches at many other PPVs thruought many of these 16 years, sometimes against guys who aren't on the "active" roster NEmore.)


He appears like a dominant force to the kids, he has the streak, he usually wins and he is the deadman who makes people rest in peace, enough said on that. Screw some silly HBK promo the kids will just see both of them as strong forces. HBK hitting the sweet chin music on you does not make you go from a feared icon to a nobody, every wrestler is going to get beat down on at some point they can still appear unstoppable.
Fair enough the people who tune out as they are old-school Taker fans are people who WWE are bound to lose I won't argue with that as it's true.
Your point about Triple H i disagree with, do not think he has enough talent left. I liked Triple H up until the last 2 years when he has got really stale and I don't see him put much input into his matches. I actually think he needs to retire before Taker to be honest. Taker put on some amazing matches with Edge while Triple H has recently put on the worst matches with Khali, Kozlov and even when he is against good opponents he sucks. He sucked in the elimination chamber, he did a few sloppy moves and won as always.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 06:46:37 AM
Quote from: John Doe;25700
He appears like a dominant force to the kids, he has the streak, he usually wins and he is the deadman who makes people rest in peace, enough said on that.

Yes, he makes opponents RIP, has the Streak, etc... But the only way he could possibly appear dominant to anyone with eyes & a brain is if WWE suddenly left TV, & became a radio entity. You see him now, & you know when he's being decent & when he's being carried. (I've said this to some people, & they point-out his work in triple-threat/handicap matches, & esp. his matches on free TV, where he does some major moves... pushed even bigger by the commentators. You know why he can do that? B/c anyone else within 10 feet of the ring can tag/beat another opponent, giving him time to rest.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25700
Screw some silly HBK promo the kids will just see both of them as strong forces.

Perhaps a decade ago; They may've both been absolutely amazing years back, & this would've been a MOTY candidate between 2 super-talents... But not this time. (I'd have much preferred if you split them up, & had each in a match against a midcarder/up-&-comer, or the like.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25700
HBK hitting the sweet chin music on you does not make you go from a feared icon to a nobody, every wrestler is going to get beat down on at some point they can still appear unstoppable.

Do you really wanna go with that "appear" idea? This is one of the things I see at wrestling-discussion areas across the 'Net; How can we both watch the same match, & see 2 so-totally-different things?
 
Quote from: John Doe;25700
Your point about Triple H i disagree with, do not think he has enough talent left. I liked Triple H up until the last 2 years when he has got really stale and I don't see him put much input into his matches.

I have to agree with the staleness comment; I think that's more becoming the WWE way, as in you know a Rey match isn't over before he at least attempts (& often hits) the 619. (Yet we're supposed to believe their opponents don't see the moves coming the same way.) Also, HHH doesn't have to put all that much work into his matches, since many of us are aware of his ability, as opposed to a "Dolph Ziggler" (for instance) who still has some fans to convince/something to prove.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25700
Taker put on some amazing matches with Edge while Triple H has recently put on the worst matches with Khali, Kozlov and even when he is against good opponents he sucks.

On the contrary, I think the WWE is in some sort of talent black-hole-like problem, & they trued to put the bad (as in awful, not heelish) guys with a talent like HH in the hopes he could carry them. With Taker, it's the other way around.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25700
He sucked in the elimination chamber, he did a few sloppy moves and won as always.

He won b/c they know (in Vince's eyes as well as those of several fans) they can do well with him holding the belt, whereas nobody would necessarily believe/want to watch with Khali, Kozlov, or some of the roster "newbies" at the top.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: chappers on 4 April 2009, 03:19:36 PM
Quote from: TJChurch;25699
Having myself been to several live events where they've appeared, I can tell you that for every guy screaming their head off when Hogan/Flair/Taker (all in prev. yrs.) appear, there's one like me opening their mouths just as wide to yawn.
There is no sense to that argument. You pay quite a stack of money to watch a show, but because he is the big superstar at the event, your going to yawn to feel superior to others around. Taker manages to bring out some of the best matches still, and has done for years, he's been a loyal superstar and is up there for being one of the best in the business. I take it you yawn at other parts of the show then, as I can imagine Taker's appearance being one of the better spectacles when you are there, unless you jump out of your seat when Jimmy Wang Yang's music hit's?
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 05:50:20 PM
Quote from: chappers;25714
There is no sense to that argument. You pay quite a stack of money to watch a show, but because he is the big superstar at the event, your going to yawn to feel superior to others around. Taker manages to bring out some of the best matches still, and has done for years, he's been a loyal superstar and is up there for being one of the best in the business. I take it you yawn at other parts of the show then, as I can imagine Taker's appearance being one of the better spectacles when you are there, unless you jump out of your seat when Jimmy Wang Yang's music hit's?

I don't yawn at his arrival b/c he's the big guy at the event; I laugh afterwards because he's the big guy at the event. I yawn because that's what I do a lot of times, in a seat at the venue or in my room here, when I'm getting ready to fall asleep.
 
He brings-out good matches, but he's not Michael Phelps or anyone like that... Meaning if Phelps has a bad day in the pool, he sucked in front of the audience, & he has to deal & move on. If Taker has a bad day in the ring, he's got 1 & sometimes more-than-1 opponent(s) who can help cover that up.
 
I don't jump out of my set fo a guy like JWY, but give me the Cruiser over the snoozer any day. (Watched Hardy-Jackson last night, & thought briefly, "What I wouldn't give to see the Boyz & Londrick face-off again.")
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: J.D on 4 April 2009, 05:52:43 PM
In reply TJ I don't think Undertaker can pull off these great moves just because he's had time to rest as his matches not long ago with Edge were long and both superstars performed really well in them. Undertaker is not what he used to be but he can still pull off a good match (unlike in my eyes Triple H.) Taker was much more impressive in his elimination chamber than Hunter and he was more heavily involved.

WWE is definitely not in a black hole period they could put Triple H against a number of talented stars they just don't always push the right people.

And yes Rey Mysterio matches are stale, it's just a hurricana near the ropes, some big doofus plops his head in place for the 619 (might I add it is stupid as who would land with their head in that position?) then Rey will hit the 619. It's so boring. They always make out Rey to be this huge underdog as well but he isn't because he wins a lot.
"Wow Rey overcame the big guy, what a new concept!"
Well not really as this storyline has been going on since the bible times with David and Goliath.
Title: Curious About Taker
Post by: TJChurch on 4 April 2009, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: John Doe;25718
I don't think Undertaker can pull off these great moves just because he's had time to rest as his matches not long ago with Edge were long and both superstars performed really well in them.

Exactly my point; They were long, which means he had plenty of time to rest. (If you didn't notice him resting, it was probably due to a mix of carrying by Edge, & other ways to not make it obvious/blatant, & that's largely a sign to the talent of both men.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25718
Undertaker is not what he used to be but he can still pull off a good match (unlike in my eyes Triple H.)

I'd have to go with the contrary.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25718
Taker was much more impressive in his elimination chamber than Hunter and he was more heavily involved.

I saw neither, so I'm just going to withhold comment on the EC matches.
 
Quote from: John Doe;25718
WWE is definitely not in a black hole period they could put Triple H against a number of talented stars they just don't always push the right people.

Agreed; Just waiting for the agreement they also push the wrong people, or the right people in wrong amounts/at wrong times. (Taker & Flair, in recent years, come to mind, for starters.)
 
Quote from: John Doe;25718
Well not really as this storyline has been going on since the bible times with David and Goliath.

In an excerpt from Y2J's upcoming 2nd book, he breaks the fact that Goliath got his fighting style from watching old Undertaker matches.